Episode #26 Your Network is Your Net Worth

Our talk with Jon Ferrara of Nimble brings us to discuss the need for relationships and the effective nurturing of them. The full transcript for Talk Experiential episode #26 Your Network is Your Net Worth is followed below.

#26 Your Network is Your Net Worth

Jon Ferrara on episode #26 of Talk Experiential.

JOEY:                         Welcome back to another Talk Experiential Podcast.  Excited for my guest, Jon Ferrara, founder of Nimble.  Excited to have you on our show today.


JON:                           Thanks, Joey.  I’m excited to be here.  I really think that we’re on this planet to grow, and we do that best by helping others grow.  So any opportunity I can to have a conversation with somebody like you who has an audience of people who want to grow, and we can have a conversation about their growth, is just a pretty effing great day for me.


JOEY:                         Absolutely.  I agree with that.  Well, I’d love to hear your story.  I mean, I currently use Nimble.  I’ve been using it for years.  You founded GoldMine, which I’m excited to talk to you about that.  I remember back in the day that GoldMine was a very advanced CRM for the day, and would love to hear how that all happened.


JON:                           Yeah, I am happy to talk about any part of that journey.  I think that the lessons learned of building GoldMine and Nimble combined would be interesting for your audience, because we actually used influencer marketing to scale GoldMine back before it was a term.


JOEY:                         Wow.  No, that’s cool.  Let’s just start with, how did you become an entrepreneur?  I mean, is this something that you’re kind of born with?  And then how did GoldMine happen?


JON:                           Well, you know, that’s an interesting segue into GoldMine in that I was a reluctant entrepreneur in some respects.  My dad was the number one car salesman in the country back in the 50s with Lincoln Mercurys, and he had the first Subaru dealership, and I grew up on his car lot.  And I swore to myself I’d never be in sales, because my dad was a car salesman and, you know, sales is a four-letter word, and my uncle helped radar and microwave at MIT in the 40s, and he had an aerospace company that built a lot of the communications systems for NASA and all the moon missions and things.  So I wanted to be an astronaut.  So I bought a computer, and I studied computer science, but I didn’t have the money to put myself through college, so I got a job at a computer store, because I knew more about computers than anybody I knew, and it turned out I was pretty good at sales, and I was making $70,000 a year working part-time, living at home, going to college in 1981.  And that was a lot of money back then.  But even then, I didn’t want to do sales, so I got a job at Hughes Aircraft and worked in aerospace for long enough to know I’m not an aerospace guy.  Got a job at a start-up in Boston, and it was there that I started to experience the value of relationships and the need for effective nurturing of them and engagement.  And back in 1987-88 when I was doing this, there was no outlook.  There was no sales force.  There was no term CRM.  We managed relationships with something called a Day-Timer, and we communicate with something called pink “While You Were Out” slips, and we did our forecasts on a spreadsheet.  And I thought that was dumb, and so I looked for a tool that would integrate email, contact, calendar, and sales and marketing automation.  I couldn’t find it, so I quit my job at Banyan and started a company called GoldMine.  We started it in Los Angeles on $5,000, never took a dime of venture, and eventually scaled it to about 10 million customers, almost $100 million in revenue, and we did that by identifying the influencer of our prospects.  So back in the day, we had a networkable business application.  It wasn’t just CRM.  It was a contact management for the whole company because relationships are managed not by sales people but by everybody in the company, and we built the first networkable relationship managers.  So who best to sell that to our customer but the person that sold them the network?  So I cold-called every Novell reseller in the country, and I got them to use it because people sell what they know and they know what they use.  And then they started to recommend it and resell it.  That’s how we got to our first $100,000 a month in revenue.  And then Avaris started asking us for leads, and I didn’t know how to advertise.  In fact, I didn’t really have the money to advertise effectively, so I started contacting the places where our prospects would learn about technology, Forbes, PC Magazine, Entrepreneur Magazine, etc., and I said, “How can I help you write more stories?”  They said, “Tell us stories about how people are using technology to grow.”  I started telling stories.  They started retelling those stories.  And that’s how we grew to the next level, about $1 million a month.  And at that time, Microsoft ate Novell, so Microsoft doesn’t innovate.  They iterate.  They wait for somebody else to build the market.  Then they come in when it’s big enough with their muscle, which is billions of users and hundreds or thousands of resellers, and they came out with NT Server, Sequel Server, and Exchange Server, and our customers at that time were saying, “Hey, Jon.  We love GoldMine, and that has a built-in database, D-Base, but we need it more scalable.  And we love the fact that it hooks up to IMAP and Pop, but we need a more secure email transport.  And we’re at the enterprise level.  We need something more secure for our operating systems.”  So we built GoldMine Enterprise, which required a seat of NT Server, Sequel Server, and Exchange Server for every seat of GoldMine, solved our customer’s need to scale, solved our partners’ need to make products and services revenue.  But more importantly, we became Microsoft’s number one ISV in the world, and that’s what got us to $100 million in revenue.  At that time, in ’99, I was 40 years old and ran GoldMine for ten years, so I sold it and I retired for ten years and raised three babies.  And I’ll tell you what, Joey.  I don’t know if you are a dad.  Are you a dad?


JOEY:                         Yes, I am.


JON:                           So you know how precious family time is.


JOEY:                         100%, yeah.


JON:                           And so I just feel blessed that I spent ten years being a present father, husband, member of my community.  It was the best thing ever.  Highly recommend spending time with your family and your friends, and especially your spouse.  Quality time is a real good thing.  And that’s the GoldMine story.


JOEY:                         Well, that’s fascinating.  So you started this thing no marketing, it sounds like you were a hustler, cold-calling and then kind of took the PR route, I assume?  That kind of helped?


JON:                           Yeah, yeah.  So it’s really a combination of influencer marketing, so getting other people to tell your story.  So the Novell resellers had a base of customers.  They already sold the network to them, and I had an application that ran on the network to enable them to drive more revenue from the customers, so rather than just selling the operating system, they actually sold a solution on top, and that was a perfect start.  But then, to really scale, you need to build the brand globally, and you need to drive net new eyeballs, and telling stories to the press about how customers are growing using technology really helped to define the whole CRM marketing.  In fact, I’ll tell you a story.  A guy named John Taschek, who’s head of strategy at Salesforce, was the editor of PC Computing back in the day when I was teaching him what CRM was.  Today, he runs strategy for the largest CRM company in the world, and I’m proud to say I think I taught him a lot of what he knew back in the day about CRM and network business applications.


JOEY:                         Oh, man.  That’s really cool.  And then, how did Nimble come about?


JON:                           So I was starting to use social media in 2006, ’07, and ’08.  And I saw it was going to change the way we work, play, buy, and sell.  And I started looking for a relationship manager that integrated with social.  I couldn’t find it.  I found something called Hootsuite and Tweetdeck which unified social conversations into streams, but it didn’t tie the social conversations to people.  So if I basically saw that somebody was talking about me in Twitter, who is Joey?  When was the last time I talked to Joey, right?  What’s Joey’s business about?  And I’d need to fish Joey out of that conversation and build a record in order to begin to engage.  And then I started looking at contact management, and I saw it was broken.  When I was playing around with that, basically Google was the only cloud contact platform with email, contact, and calendar there in the cloud.  And email, contact, and calendar are three separate tabs in Google, in Gmail, G-Suite.  And so contacts aren’t linked to the conversations you’re having or the activities that you’re driving, so that’s a broken contact management in my regard, because GoldMine did that 30 years ago.  Email, contact, and calendar should be linked, so you have history.  And then you need context.  Who is somebody?  And what is their business about?  So you have to Google them to know what that is.  And the best way to understand who somebody is, is it walk in their digital footprint, to walk in their Twitter, their Facebook, or in their LinkedIn.  And so I saw that not only should email, contacts, and calendar be unified, but social should be linked to all of that.  Not just their identity, but the history of interactions and their business information.  And so I started hearing notes in my head, like I heard in the GoldMine days.  So I picked up my guitar, and I basically put a band together, and we built Nimble.  And basically, Nimble pioneered not just social selling and social CRM, but really the value of a unified relationship manager, not just for sales people but for everybody in the company, because it’s not just sales people that touch the customer, and it’s not just prospects and customers that you need to engage with.  At Nimble, we engage with editors, analysts, bloggers, influencers, third-party developers, investors, advisors, and prospects and customers, and traditionally CRM isn’t a great place to put all of that.  And you really need a team relationship manager.  And today, the contact tools you have, Office 365 and G-Suite Gmail and iCloud aren’t good at contact manager, because basically every team member has a separate contact database, and email and calendar aren’t linked, let alone social.  And so Nimble basically unifies all of that, becomes a team relationship manager, and that could either be your CRM or actually it works with your CRM.  In fact, Microsoft pushes us worldwide as the simple CRM for Office, but we’re actually becoming a gateway to dynamics.  And that’s really replicating what happened with GoldMine.  If you think about it, we started with Novell, and then Microsoft ate Novell, and we basically became the number one driver of sales for NT Server, Sequel Server, and Exchange Server.  We started with Nimble with Gmail G-Suite, which was effectively the Novell of our era, because if you have PCs, you tie it together with G-Suite Gmail.  But Microsoft ate them with Office 365.  Today, there’s 165 million Office 365 customers.  There’s seven million G-Suite customers.  So it’s really game over with email productivity, and the battle is going to be Azure.  Because, if you think about it, ten years ago, companies, corporations said, “We’re never going to the cloud.  We don’t trust it.”  And a few years ago, they started dipping the toe in the water by putting their exchange servers in the cloud with Office 365.  Tomorrow, it’s going to be the rest of the servers, because every company has either been hacked or is going to get hacked, and they can’t afford to manage and maintain their servers and firewalls, etc.  And so Azure’s the place where a lot of businesses are going to put their servers, and the company that can not only drive adoption and sales of Office 365 but retention and adoption of Azure and the other crown jewels of Microsoft like Dynamics will become the next GoldMine, and we’re basically primed for that position, because Microsoft has signed a global resale agreement with Nimble.  They’re pushing us worldwide through all their distributors.  We’ve signed up 30 of their top 50 global distributors, like Tech Data and Ingram and others, and basically are spinning up tens of thousands of Microsoft resellers who traditionally have sold plumbing to plumbers, IT infrastructure to IT decision makers.  But now, we’re getting them to use Nimble to become modern sellers, and to start selling Nimble on top of Office, which will help them become Azure and Dynamics resellers in the future.  And so, history is kind of repeating itself, and it’s really amazing to see.


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JOEY:                         Yeah.  Well, it’s fascinating what you’ve built and how you’ve brought it all into one.  I mean, I think one of the biggest things is data is king, understanding who you’re talking to, but also, you know, kind of what we were talking about offline, just the value of network and relationships.  You know, from just growing my company through marketing and through, you know, the Talk Experiential is just building these relationships.  Now, I’d love to talk a little bit about how you’ve grown this, just through these relationships, and why is it so important for, you know, people to really understand, like, you never know what’s going to happen ten years down the line.  I have a sales guy, a director of partnerships.  We worked ten years ago at a sales job.  We worked with GoldMine, the CRM.  We’ll probably laugh about it a little later.  And now he works with us.  But I’d love to learn kind of on your end, like just through growing your companies, you know, why is relationship so important, and how did it help grow your companies?


JON:                           Well, Joey, I’m going to tell you a story.  Imagine selling a company at 40 years old for more money than you could ever imagine in your life, and getting a head tumor a year later and almost dying, and having two babies sitting there, and a wife, a young life.  How would that feel?


JOEY:                         Horrible.


JON:                           It’d be kind of scary, right?


JOEY:                         Upside down, your life.


JON:                           Right?  And so that’s me at 41, and that was, I don’t know, 17 years ago and, knock on pressboard, and – let’s knock on some real wood.  But in the journey of getting healed, right?  From, like, just from healing the tumor, I also went on a spiritual journey, and I came to the conclusion that we’re on this planet to grow our souls by helping other people grow theirs.  And when you talk about the value of relationships, you know, they just don’t – it’s not just the people you do business with.  It’s everybody around you.  I think that you owe anyone you’re with your presence.  And to try to leave them with something, even if it’s a smile, right?  And so, I think the value of relationships are just critical to your personal and professional success.  Your network is your net worth.  Your personal brand plus your professional network will help you achieve your dreams in life, and I think that that’s what’s helped me to build two global companies, if you think about it.  Nimble was built by identifying the influencer of my prospect and building relationships with them, thereby building the Nimble brand, my brand, and driving eyeballs to our website, which has been as high as 100,000 uniques per month with zero advertising.  And the way that we did that is we identified the influencer of our prospect in and around the areas of promise for our products and services and began sharing their content, attributing the category and their name appropriately which generated eyeballs of people looking to be better, smarter, faster at social sales and marketing, audience of that influencer, and relationships with the influencer themselves.  And that results in traffic to our brand and in sales, but more important, introductions in relationships.  And I’ll tell you a story that just happened last night.  You know Lee Odden, right?


JOEY:                         Lee Odden, yes.


JON:                           Okay.  Lee Odden is one of the top influencers and speakers on marketing.  I get an email from Lee Odden last night.  It says something to the effect of, “Hey, Jon.  Our team continues to love Nimble as an influencer CRM that we use for ourselves, but I was consulting with Adobe and SAP this week in San Francisco, and their heads of influencer marketing could really use Nimble.  Is it okay if I do an introduction?”  I said, “Heck yeah.”


JOEY:                         Right.


JON:                           And I got an introduction, and now I’m having a meeting with the head of influencer marketing at Adobe on Friday, right?  Now, why did that happen?  It didn’t happen because I pay Lee Odden.  It happened because we’ve built and nurtured a relationship with Lee over time, and it’s not just a business relationship.  In fact, it’s really more personal.  I believe in the five Fs of life.  Family, friend, food, fun, and fellowship are the commonalities that we share with each other in order to build intimacy and trust.  And ultimately, that rides through any business connection.  LinkedIn is like walking in my lobby.  But if you want to know who Jon is, walk through my Instagram, my Facebook, my Twitter.  These are the softer places where we’re connected on our commonalities.  A barbecue, or backpacking, or whatever family.  And Lee and I have connected across a lot of commonalities, including the fact that he’s from a small town in Minnesota which is where my great-grandmother gave birth to my grandmother.  And so relationships are so critical, but we’re over-connected and we’re over-communicated.  You could only manage 100 to 200 people in your head at one time.  That’s called the Dunbar limit.  And most people have thousands of connections.  And when you are going to interact with somebody, you need to know who they are, you need to know the history of interactions you and the team have had, you need to know what their business is about for you to be effective in the one-to-one communication.  But the most important thing is to follow-up and follow-through.  People fail at the basics of business.  Follow-up and follow-through is critical, and you don’t do it because you have to go to the CRM to do it, and you work for the CRM by having to look shit up and log it.  I believe your CRM should work for you by building itself and then work with you wherever you are in email, in social, on your phone, so that you can be prepared for every engagement, do the follow-up and follow-through which will result in deeper relationships, will result in you achieving your dreams in life, which I hope involve you serving others and helping them grow, because that is why we’re on this planet.


JOEY:                         Absolutely.  Well, man, I really appreciate this.  This is great.  And I mean, you take it to a human level too.  It’s like, we’re not numbers.  You know, we’re not numbers in a CRM and we’re trying to connect, and you know, I like how it’s just, you can connect on a deeper level, kind of what you’ve been talking about.  You know, and taking it offline, because I think a lot of people out there always put business in front, that this is why we’re going.  I go to a lot of events, really just to build relationships and not have an agenda.  And it frustrates me when someone’s like, “Hey, go directly into business.”  Which is fine, because I understand that’s where they’re at.  But, you know, usually there’s going to be a stopping point for a minute.  But you know, going to a deeper level and understanding, we’re only on this planet for a very short period of time.  It’s like, you go down to like, where are you at and why you are here, so it’s really fascinating to hear your story and how you’ve grown over the years.


JON:                           Yeah.  I really think that they’re not going to write on my grave, “Built – invented CRM and contact management, made millions.”  They’re going to say, “Beloved father, husband, friend, member of the community.”  And that’s why we’re here.  But you can achieve your dreams and be successful in life without eating other people, right?  And so, if you think about it, sales today is a four-letter word, but I believe service is the new sales.  I believe that if a sales person entered into every relationship with the intent to serve and grow that other person, even if it meant recommending a competitor’s product at that particular moment, if that product suited them better, I think that that sales person would become even more successful, right?  But if you think about it, Joey, this is nothing different than what Zig Ziglar, Dale Carnegie, Napoleon Hill, Brian Tracy, Stephen Covey have taught over the past 100 years.  So if you think about it, I think that social is creating a renaissance in relationship, it’s increasing the transparency and expectations that we have of each other, and is bringing us back to a small village where your reputation was based on the promises you make and the experience that you deliver, and I think that’s a great thing, because the era of bag ’em and tag ’em, Oracle Enterprise, shoot ’em in the head sales, I think, is ending, and we’re getting back into a place where relationships really matter.  And if you do that right, you can have infinite success and be happy too.


JOEY:                         Yeah, absolutely.  Well, Jon, thanks so much.  Our time is up here, but I would really love to follow up with you, and maybe we can get you on another show, and maybe meet in person at some point.  I mean, I like you quite a bit, so.


JON:                           Yeah.  And I’m up in Denver periodically.  Actually, I’d love to introduce you to some of my friends in Denver.  Do you know Joel Cohen?


JOEY:                         I do, actually.  Yeah.  He walks by my office quite a bit, and I’ve met him once.  Yeah.


JON:                           And Mia Voss?  Do you know Mia Voss?


JOEY:                         I don’t think so.


JON:                           Okay.  Well, I have some cool friends in Denver that I’d like to connect you with.  In fact, I have some friends that are influencers in marketing that I think would be great for your show.  So let’s chat about that after we wrap this up.


JOEY:                         Sounds good.  Well, thanks for joining.


JON:                           One last thing?


JOEY:                         Yeah?


JON:                           For your listeners today, I want to offer them a special.  If they go to Nimble.com and sign up for Nimble, it’s free for two weeks, they don’t have to put a credit card in or anything, but if they decide that Nimble will suit their needs for relationships, and it doesn’t matter if you have a CRM, like HubSpot or Salesforce or Dynamics, or they don’t have a CRM, Nimble can be your CRM or work within your existing CRM.  There’s a code, JON40, that they can put in, that they can save 40% off their first three months.  So I just want to give them a little bit of incentive to become more nimble in their relationships.


JOEY:                         That’s perfect.  And I’ll have this on the show notes as well.  You guys can click on the link to check it out.


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Episode #25 Sponsorships: From Billboards to Events



Our talk with Mike Brant of Mile Zero brings us to discuss how to take sponsorships from billboards to live events and festivals. The full transcript for Talk Experiential episode #25 Sponsorships: From Billboards to Events is followed below.

#25 Sponsorships: From Billboards to Events

Mike Brant on episode #25 of Talk Experiential.

JOEY: Welcome back to a Talk Experiential podcast.  We’ve got Mike Bryant from Mile Zero; founder and CEO.  Thanks for joining.


MIKE: Absolutely.  Thanks for having me, Joey.  I appreciate it.


JOEY: Yeah, well we just recently worked together at the Taste of Colorado here in Denver.  It’s interesting how kind of similar backgrounds and similar people we know throughout the years.  So, it’s a small knit industry.


MIKE: Yeah.  No, absolutely, and even connecting on this podcast.  I mean it’s funny that we did a deal together at the Taste and now we’re sitting here chatting.  [0:00:35.7]


JOEY: Exactly.


MIKE: Small world.


JOEY: Right?  What a small world.  Well, I’d love to dive in.  The conversation’s going to be around sponsorship.  You have a huge sponsorship background. I’d love to hear about your background.


MIKE: Yeah, absolutely.  So, like I’d mentioned before, I got my start in baseball.  I started in minor league baseball. That’s where I wanted to kind of cut my teeth and start on the sale side of professional baseball and I worked for a team called the Normal Cornbelters out in Normal, Illinois during grad school and started work there, got a job with the Royals and started to do some corporate sponsorship with the Royals and realized it was not really the path I wanted to take.  Alternately, I wanted to get to the Sox or the Cubs – being a Chicago boy – but alternately, in professional sports you go where the jobs are at. And, ultimately, I wanted to stay home – that’s where my wife and my family’s at – and I had an opportunity to come out with a company called Red Frog Events in Chicago and was able to kind of cut my teeth there and really help from a sponsorship prospective build their business from the ground up.  I got in when Red Frog was kind of a tiny little company and it was starting to really grow and blossom and [0:01:40.9]was in full swing at that point and a few years later we launched Firefly Music Festival on the east coast and the opportunity to sell sponsorships for that festival for a handful of years.


And as I grew with my time at Red Frog, I said, “I really want to do this for myself and really help people in this industry – the festival industry and the event space – from a sponsorship prospective and really help them build their business, and that’s kind of where the idea of Mile Zero grew.  


I was able to connect with a few event producers in the Midwest and they really – they had nobody doing it and there was really a hole from their sponsorship prospective and had a lot going on and was able to kind of dive in and utilize the contacts and the folks I’d met along the way at Red Frog and Firefly and really tap into the relationships that I’d built over the last four to five years and helped a group that I was working with in the Midwest with their festivals and it kind of just spiraled from there and a lot of it now has just been word of mouth, folks that I’ve done work with or clients that I’ve done work with have referred us to their event folks or friends or people in the industry and that’s kind of how we grew Mile Zero and that’s kind of where we’re at today.  


JOEY: Awesome.  Well, congrats.


MIKE: Thank you.


JOEY: That’s pretty neat to be able to go from these bigger programs and I feel we’ve actually stacked a few things.  We never worked together at Red Frog but we did a bunch with the Firefly Music Festival.


MIKE: Yep; yeah, absolutely, and even knowing Natalie on the marketing side.  A lot of folks that we’ve come across – our paths have crossed, definitely, and now they’re obviously crossing on another level, which is pretty cool, too, from a sponsorship prospective.


JOEY: Yeah, absolutely.  So, it looks like you guys work with festivals all across the country.  How many festivals and events are you guys working with?


MIKE: I mean it kind of ranges.  I’d say at our peak right now we’re probably at 15 properties, across the country.  We really started in core music festivals. That’s kind of where we started the business and helping the standard music festival where – 2-3 day music festival with a camping element and kind of started to kind of spin off to these ‘Taste of’ festivals and other areas that we found that really need help, that have a huge [0:03:48.9] or a huge attendance, like the Taste of Colorado, for example.  We’ve got 500,000 people and there’s a huge opportunity from a sponsorship prospective there and I think we’re starting to identify some underserved industries where the potential for sponsorship is really great but no one’s really identified it and I think that’s kind the route we’re taking as a company, is identifying those events or festivals that we really can make a splash in, from a sponsorship perspective.


JOEY: Awesome.  Just with your experience, you’ve been in it for quite a while and you’ve seen different brands, wanting to activate different things – What are you seeing right now with brands and what their kind of goals – Have things changed over the years of what they’re looking for and what they’re wanting?  I’d love to get your thoughts on that.


MIKE: Yeah, absolutely.  I think, back in the day, it used to be as easy as just a sign up on a billboard or a banner at an event or a festival, and now it’s certainly changing.  People want to be engaged. They want something that they’re excited about. They come to the festival and there’s music, there’s food, there’s other activities that go on and a sponsorship is just their layer on top of that event and I think brands are realizing, “Wow, we’ve got to do something more creative to engage these folks and to really bring them to our space,” as opposed to just throwing up a sign on the main stage or a logo on the main stage.  


These brands are investing a lot of money in these really cool experiential activations that have a sampling component and then it’s a drive to retail.  We just worked with a brand called Kevita Kombucha. It had a two story activation where you can go and you could sample a flight of kombucha – three different flavors – and then go up and watch music from their second platform, on top of the activation.  So, things like that. I think people are really resonating with the millennials and the groups that are really coming to these festivals and those brands, I think, are realizing that it needs to be more engaging, from an experience standpoint.


JOEY: Right.  Well, and especially this day and age, just with technology out there, how do you get in front of millennials?  I think millennials – I don’t know if you see it but millennials have been a huge target for brands. How do you get in front of them?  They kind of have the biggest bucket of opportunity, so that’s why a lot of brands are looking to target those. I know brands like Verizon has literally changed their logo –


MIKE: Yep.


JOEY: – and their whole focus on millennials, but for sponsorship, I guess do you guys see the bigger activations or a bigger type of presence they’re wanting, compared to a 10X10 booth at these festivals?


MIKE: Yeah, absolutely.  I think those are the most success for the brands that are investing some dollars on the activation piece of things, and not just popping up a 10×10.  Those are obviously successful for certain brands, but brands that are willing to invest a little bit of money to bring something that’s really cool and unique to the festival, and then on top of that, not only activate onsite, but from start to finish and telling that full story because there’s still – Ideally you want to capture somebody that’s pre-festival, during the ticketing process, onsite post festival, and keep those people’s engagement and attention throughout the course of the span of the sponsorship and I think brands that do that do it well, from a social perspective, from a marketing perspective, and really build a whole campaign around what they’re actually doing on-site and doing a really good sponsorship from that perspective, I think, is really important.


JOEY: Right, absolutely.  Very cool. What’s some big events are you guys working on right now?


MIKE: So we just wrapped, obviously, the Taste of Colorado this past Labor Day weekend, we’re starting to, obviously, gear up now for 2019, which is crazy that we’re not even in October yet, but we’re certainly in our sales cycle for that festival.  We’ve got a few festivals in Vegas, in the craft beer side, that we’ll be activating here in the next couple months. And then again, just rolling over some new clients that we’re in the process of talking to, we’re excited to roll out some new properties and some new clients that we’ll be on boarding here in the next couple months and I think from our prospective we’re obviously hitting the ground running from a sponsorship prospective, but now is a time where events and festivals are starting to reach out to companies like us and say, “Hey, look, we know this is the time we should be really hitting sponsors.  Let’s have a conversation to really start that process.”


So, that’s kind of been our focus, from year to year.  We obviously start or current sale cycle with the clients we have and now we’re starting to talk to new potential clients, starting to onboard those folks as the coming months progress here.


JOEY: If you are an agency or brand that has human engagement at your live events.  Please check out Air Fresh Marketing’s certified vendor partnership program’s new platform that is helping clients win more business, helping them out on higher quality events, and spend a lot less time training and interacting with staff.  Please go to www.airfreshmarketing.com/partnerships.  

Perfect.  So, I guess that’s great topic that you brought up is right now, usually – Right now is almost – I wouldn’t say behind the ball for next year but a lot of brands are looking for next year, 2019.


MIKE: Yep.


JOEY: You can’t just throw this together.  You might have a spot or whatnot but experiential marketing, anything physical takes a lot of time and effort to put together, but I guess, do you have any tips for these brands looking for festivals to be at that you’ve kind of seen that might be beneficial for them?


MIKE: From a brand prospective?


JOEY: Yeah, from a brand prospective.


MIKE: Yeah, I think there’s a lot of – I think it probably has to come from a couple different angles:  Who you’re really to target from a demographic perspective and then boil it down from, “Are we looking to target people at music festivals, are we looking at craft and food festivals, are we looking at 5k sporting events?”  


It kind of just depends on what their goals are, from a marketing perspective.  And I think when a brand starts to realize, “Okay, this is the budget we have, this is who we’re trying to target, and this what our activation looks like.  Now, let’s go out and find those events,” and that’s – Really, where our core focus is obviously client driven and supporting the events and festivals we work with but, ultimately, we want to be a resource for those brands and those agencies that are looking for properties, like the ones we represent and educate those folks too and say, “Look, we’ve got a slew of different things going on that might fit what you’re trying to do.  Let’s have that conversation because we want to be a resource for your brand or the agency looking for these types of events and festivals,” and I think we’ve had some good success with that, saying, “Hey, look, we’ve got the food festival, we’ve got some music festivals, we’ve some food festivals, tell us what you’re looking to do and we’ll make some really concise decisions on where we think you guys should be from a brand prospective and your overall goals from a marketing perspective.”


JOEY: Right.  No, very cool.  And I know that – So, you guys do a little bit more than just the sponsorship.  You guys work with the event management. You guys are pretty much event management for like – Let’s just talk about Taste of Colorado, for instance.  You guys kind of put the whole show on?


MIKE: Yeah, so we don’t just sell in a sponsorship and say, “Here you go guys.  Activate it,” we’re truly soup to nuts, from start to finish. We’ll sell in a sponsorship and then we’ll obviously activate it onsite.  And then another part of our business, too, is event operations and that’s ultimately, from our prospective, we want to start getting into our own events and start producing our own festivals and really working with brands to say, “Look, we know what kind of brands are looking for, from an event prospective, let’s start build some things around that and really make an experience that really ties into what some of these brands are looking for, from an event prospective.”  


But yeah, obviously, from my time at Red Frog and what we’ve done at these other events, we’re not afraid to get on a forklift and set up tents and tables and chairs.  I think it also is helpful to have that event experience than coming onsite and realizing this is what takes to help get a sponsor setup or this is a really high traffic spot, from an event prospective; this is where we should be putting this brand or this activation based on the flow of the festival or where we really think this is going to be a success for the brand.  So, I think having that understanding from the event perspective is also helpful when obviously selling in these event partnerships, as well.


JOEY: Yeah.  No, absolutely.  That experience is definitely key.  This is kind of a random question but – Like I said, you’ve done this quite a while.  What’s the coolest activation you’ve seen? It doesn’t have to be the one that you’ve done?  Kind of a broad question.


MIKE: Man, that’s a tough one.


JOEY: I know it’s tough.


MIKE: That’s such a loaded question.  No, we’ve obviously worked with a lot of cool brands, a lot of cool activations – I think one of the most fun ones I think that I had that opportunity to work on was with Garnier Fructis at Firefly, a handful of years ago.  They set up this really cool activation where you could go take a shower in the campgrounds and then you’d come and they’d style your hair, they’d have all the sorts of products, and it was basically like this beauty bar. But it was this 40×40 foot tent where when you’re at a festival for three or four days and you’re sweating and you’re not really showering because you’re camping for three days in 95 degree weather, it’s pretty cool to be able to say, “Hey, look at Garnier.  They got all this free product, they’re going to help me do my hair up for the rest of the festival and kind of refresh you for the next couple days.”


So, I think not only from an attendee prospective, the experience is great, but from a brand prospective, I think that was a really good sponsorship because you’re not just putting a logo on a t-shirt or handing out a bandana, you’re really engaging the consumer, the participant at the festival.  You’re offering something that’s really beneficial and really, ultimately, I still use Garnier Fructis, no joke, at our home, just from that partnership. We had so much free product and now that’s all my wife buys.


So, I think that’s just kind of a good example of a really good start to finish partnership where they had a great activation, a great engagement from a consumer standpoint and I think that really this can allow people at Firefly or across the board, now I use Garnier Fructis because I had such a good experience with that brand on-site.


JOEY: Yeah, very cool.  Regarding experiential marketing, I’ve seen a lot of – Even just the last year or two, I’ve seen a lot more companies taking their ad spend from to digital and taking it to a physical level.  Have you seen a jump here the last couple of years of more people wanting to be able to be at these events and be at their target market?


MIKE: Yeah, absolutely.  And I think – And maybe I’m wrong but I think a lot of the reason is just we’re so – We don’t have enough time in a day and our attention is all over the place with emails and Instagram and Facebook and social media and I think actually engaging someone onsite – They’re there for a reason, right?  They either want to see music or they’ve paid a fee to get into a festival and I think brands are realizing, “Wow, this is a really captive audience.


If we could do something that ties into the festival in a really organic way, let’s talk to these people on the ground and give them something or call to action then drive back to – like I said – retail or social media then, on the backend.  I think people get to site or at an event and they’re all over the place: they want to see everything and engage with people, and from a sponsorship prospective, I think that’s been really beneficial for a lot of brands is to maybe get a product in somebody’s hands or a coupon or just engage them and educate them and educate them about a new product or maybe something that they’re pushing for the following year or that current year, even.  


So, yeah, that’s certainly our core business, really, is setting up these activations and allowing folks to come onsite and set up these cool experiences and then obviously on the backend, tying it into other assets with digital and social and marketing and that sort of thing.  But, the onsite piece, I think, has been super important for a lot of these brands in the last – I’d say – four to five years.


JOEY: Yeah.  No, absolutely, and I think it’s just going to continue because it’s just – The digital side is just going to continue to be almost too much for you.


MIKE: Right.


JOEY: Being able to just get that captive audience, like you mentioned, just have a spark in their mind, “Man, I’m going to remember this forever,” but then have a brand attached to it that’s meaningful and kind of focus on them, I think that’s huge.


MIKE: Absolutely.  


JOEY: Regarding Taste of Colorado, there’s a lot of vendors too, right?  I got a chance to walk around there. It’s an interesting type of activation just because there’s some – I don’t know, it’s different type of just mom and pop shops that kind of jump in.  


I think their goal more is just for daily revenue, I assume, right, compared to a brand like Boss Coffee, that we did.  They want to push – Boss Coffee, we wanted to do two things: we wanted to get people to try a new product that no one’s tried before and then also a social media aspect, whether post it or like their page.  


I guess with – just with the vendors, I guess what we do is not cheap, right?  Even being a sponsor isn’t cheap but it can really differentiate where you’re going and figure out exactly where your target is.  So, I guess, I don’t know; do you have any thoughts on that, on how are these mom and pop shops are doing, compared to a bigger brand?


MIKE: Yeah and absolutely, I think there’s maybe that misconception too of what a vendor and what a sponsor are.


JOEY: Right.


MIKE: I think people say, “Well, we want to be a vendor,” but I think those two names are kind of interchangeable when I think they’re a little different when you kind of look at it from what your point was.  I kind of call those mom and pop shops or the folks that want to sell their trinkets or maybe beef jerky or whatever they’re doing from something crafty or what have you, those vendors have a place in the marketplace at the Taste of Colorado and I think they’re a little bit different than a Boss Coffee or a sponsor that’s setting up a large activation or sampling a product.  


I think there’s two differentiations where a mom and pop might just be paying a couple hundred bucks to set up a 10×10 and showcase whatever they’re offering is and make a profit on that at the Taste of Colorado or a Boss Coffee or a Kevita or a Frito Lay, where they’re pushing something from a marketing perspective, where it’s a little bit larger, where we’ve got this new product that we’re really launching and we’ve got a whole marketing campaign around it and brands like Boss or Kevita have identified Denver as a market and said, “Okay, now we want to be at the Taste of Colorado,” these are the folks we want to talk to because ultimately we’re looking to enter this market in a big way and now we’re able to talk to all these folks onsite, we’re allowing them to try the product, and now, hey, all of a sudden you’re going to go to King Soopers or a store and it’s going to be all over the shelves, and hopefully those folks now try that.  


So, I think there’s a little bit of a differentiator between what a true vendor is and what a sponsor is.  There’s obviously some gray lines and everyone’s kind of looking to get the word out about their brand or their name or their product, but ultimately, I think from a sponsorship perspective it’s a little bit of a deeper level where they’re really activating around this entire activation, it’s not just, “All right, we’re going to set up a tent and let’s sample some product.”  We’re going to try, like you said, to get some – drive traffic to Facebook or increase our presence on social or we’ve got a new product that we’re offering. So, I think there’s a little bit of differentiator there, between those two.


JOEY: Well, awesome.  Well, Mike, it was awesome having you on and it was a real pleasure working with you.  You guys put on a great event and I hope we can do some more and hopefully have you on another podcast and meet you in Chicago, hopefully soon.


MIKE: Yeah, absolutely, Joey.  I appreciate the time, man.  It’s great to connect. I’m excited as our first podcast and it was with you and Talk Experiential, so we’re excited that you had us on.  And, absolutely, we’re excited to keep chatting and hopefully we can do this again sometime.


JOEY: Awesome.  Thanks so much, man.


MIKE: Cool.  All right, Joe, we’ll talk soon.


JOEY: Take care.


MIKE: All right, bye.

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Find the list of full Talk Experiential episodes here.

Episode #24 How to Drive Innovations in Trends

Our talk with Taylor Justin of Coca-Cola brings us to discuss how to drive innovations in trends. The full transcript for Talk Experiential episode #24 Using Trends and Insights to Build Actionable Data-Driven Results is followed below.

#24 How to Drive Innovations in Trends

Taylor Justin on episode #24 of Talk Experiential.


JOEY: Welcome back to another podcast with Talk Experiential.  I am Joey Kercher, your host. We have Taylor Justin from Chicago, Illinois.  She is the market development manager for Coca-Cola in downtown Chicago. Thanks for joining.


TAYLOR: Thank you for having me, Joey.


JOEY: Yeah.  We’ve been talking for a little bit so I’m pretty excited to get you on here.  How’s the weather out there? Is it starting to get chilly in Chicagoland?


TAYLOR: It is but, it’s like – I don’t know; I personally enjoy this type of weather.  I’m an Ohio girl so I’m used to the cold. I will say that there’s a difference between Chicago’s cold and the rest of everywhere else that gets cold weather, but you know, it’s not too bad.  We’ve had some – We’re going to have some peak spike days so, for the most part, I’m enjoying it.


JOEY: Right?  Well, good.  Well, good, it’s always a fun place to visit.




JOEY: Well, cool.  Why don’t you tell us a little about your background and we can kind of dive into some of the work you’re doing with Coke.


TAYLOR: Yeah, so as you mentioned in my intro, I am market development manager with Coca-Cola, in the downtown region of Chicago.  Primarily, I manage and go some of the most affluent accounts in the city. Northwestern Hospital is one of my biggest accounts: a very reputable and well known hospital in this state, as well as The Rehabilitation Center, which is a part of the Northwestern campus, also very well known in the healthcare sector.  I manage a host of business professional accounts that have their food service in well known facilities such as the Aon Building, Prudential, as well as NBC Tower.


And then finally, I retain the business, also, for a host of what we deem quick service and full service restaurants in the downtown area, so the RPMs of the world, really well known restaurant groups like Let Us Entertain You, and a host of other really fantastic restaurants in the area that I’ve been able to build really long term partnerships with, since managing this part of the city.


JOEY: Gotcha; very cool.  So, it sounds like you work with – We were talking a little bit earlier before regarding kind of an on-premise focus for Coke – and I assume it’s multiple brands for Coca Cola?


TAYLOR: Definitely.  So, it’s always interesting to have the conversation about what falls under the Coke umbrella, because people still think that we still classic Coke.


JOEY: Right [0:02:41.3].


TAYLOR: That’s it; nothing else that I’m pushing out here.  But, no, there’s a host of brands that people know and love and might be surprised about that falls under the Coke umbrella.  


So, some of my favorites are Smartwater -that’s under the coke family – the Minute Maid line of juices is under Coca-Cola, Honest Tea is a Coca-Cola Brand – I remember I met a guy who seems like he was very anti-corporation and when I told him that we have Honest Tea under our portfolio and he – it seemed like everything just left his body.  He was just so unhappy. And I’m like, “You know, it’s kind of one of those things.”


But, what’s great about these brands and the business that Coke has is that they’re a beverage company and that’s all that they do, and so they beauty of the brands is that they don’t fall into one another, like most people don’t realize that all of these different brands – many of them being their favorites – fall into the Coke umbrella because they act separately.  


Internally, we have different ways of looking at it but even we have different teams that operate some of our well known brands differently because they target different consumers and because of that, they’re all not going to be treated the same.  So, that’s what’s pretty cool about having all those brands that I’m able to sell, is that even though they’re all under one family – I get to sell them all – that they still manage to reach people differently as well.


JOEY: Right, gotcha; very cool.  Well, and I know that, yeah, these big companies: Coke, Pepsi – it’s a lot of different brands under one and they’re almost m&a shops, when you really look at it, from a big picture.  So, you focus on certain hospitals and hotels and things like that?




JOEY: Awesome.  And, from that side, you were talking about immediate consumption type of product.  This is obviously a form of marketing and obviously a channel – We were talking about this earlier: this is a channel that Coke sees very valuable to continue through at these locations.  Let’s talk a little bit about what your goals and strategies are, offering Coke product, whether it’s through merchandizing or through activations.


TAYLOR: Yeah.  So, with these accounts, one of the things that I really try to focus on is who’s consuming these beverages?  So, immediate consumption is essentially like a single serving of something. So, when you think about your fountain machines or if you go to your favorite restaurant, you’re most likely just getting one or perhaps two of a single beverage.  So, it’s just for you to have right at that moment and probably not going to share, versus if you – Our other channels being large and small store, which are mostly related to convenience and grocery stores.


So, with this immediate consumption channel, what I strategically like to do within my accounts is to really figure out what the market is moving towards and the trend, especially on the beverage side is all about innovation.  The market is very competitive for beverages. Companies like Coca-Cola as well as the competition were major players in the game, but there’s a lot of smaller brands that are coming in and finding and seizing opportunity as well.  


I think with this channel in particular and just with big brands in general, people are starting to not necessarily get tired but they do want a little bit more excitement and a lot of that comes from some of these smaller brands who thought about the market that wasn’t being tapped into, whether that be through the way they market the products, how the bottle looks – the packaging and things like that – and they’re able to capture that audience.  So, for me, it’s really about trying to make sure that our brands can hold their own against that and figure out how to keep our space within these accounts, and again, continue to grow the brand.


Probably the best example of what I just kind of laid out is this whole sparkling water war that I feel like everyone is doing right now.  Under the Coke family, we have Smartwater and Smartwater has a sparkling but we also have Dasani. Dasani has a line of sparking waters that recently came into the market, maybe this time last year or it’s been about two years.  I feel like that was a product that was very late to the market, especially for such a big company like Coke, and even the competition because Le Croix had been in the market for some time and completely swept the competition and a big name like Coca- Cola, one of the things that I have to really strategically do is leverage that name of Coca-Cola, leverage the name of Dasani to try to push that product in against a brand like La Croix, who’s really been holding it down in the sparkling water category for so long.  So, it’s really for me figuring out how to drive the innovation and being proactive and determining what the trend is.


So, there’s a couple that are out there – it’s so competitive out there – but you know, a big name, a heritage name, does carry its weight but sometimes if something’s been around as well and people get used to a certain taste, even if it’s a heritage brand, sometimes it can be a little bit harder to push that in.


JOEY: Right, got it.  So, through this channel, this immediate consumption channel – you’re mentioning a little bit about driving innovation – what kind of things are you doing, I guess on a merchandising level?  Is it product placement? Is it being able to educate consumers? Because obviously, this day and age, consumers are smarter and they understand what they want, they know what’s in it – What are some of the ideas or ways that you are kind of pushing that innovation to get them to do that immediate consumption?


If you are an agency or brand that has human engagement at your live events, please check out Air Fresh Marketing’s certified vendor partnership program’s new platform that is helping clients win more business, helping them put on higher quality events and spend a lot less time training and interacting with staff.  Please go to www.airfreshmarketing.com/partnerships.


TAYLOR: Definitely.  So, Joey, what I like to do, especially if it’s a really good partner that’s just kind of willing to bring in any and everything, is to see how I can leverage the brand in a way for their shoppers or their consumers to get a taste of it.  So, we will do or I’ll host sampling events during peak consumption hours, which mostly is lunch for a lot of these places.


So, generally it’ll be maybe an hour and a half to two hour sampling, just showcasing off the new products, and again, really focusing on the beverage category that’s really important for our business and then being proactive.  For example, it might be something like energy, and so we’ll have a two hour showcase of our Monster Energy line and really focus on, depending on the account – for example, if it’s the hospital, then focusing on the zero sugar zero carb line of the product so that we’re kind of addressing a two in one there.  We’re showing that, “Hey, this is an energy product. It’s going to provide this alertness, these type of vitamins, but also showcasing that we understand that this is a healthcare facility. So, this won’t have as much sugar as what you might assume has an energy beverage or it won’t have as much carbs in it.”  So, really focusing on the channel and making sure that I host events that are going to make sense for that audience.


So, that’s a part of it and then, secondly, like you said, merchandising, so, getting the product, especially if it’s new, right in the customer’s face.  And so, one of the biggest products that I do this with is with Smartwater or just our water category, in general, because I think out of any craving that a person might have, water is a necessity, especially a water that they really like.  So, it’s a matter of having this water right in their face, so placing it strategically at eye level – One of the things that we do with Smartwater a lot, too, is to make sure that it’s ambient because there is a trend with having room temperature water versus a water that’s been chilled.  Some people’s bodies are sensitive, I think there’s some studies that are related to that, and so we try to have as much ambient water on the floor as well, and place it by stations – if we are in one of our food service accounts – placing it strategically by stations so that people can have the idea of paring it with a meal or that they grab it upon the consumption of grabbing their food.


So, we always want to make sure that when we’re marketing the products, that we have it go with food.  That’s always been a big initiative for Coke, just speaking to the brand itself, I’m not sure how it is with other brands but we’ve always been a brand to pair with food.  You can see it one of the recent commercials that I see a lot is people are enjoying Coke or Coke Zero, Diet Coke, or something like that with different types of cultural foods.  So, whether it’s with barbeque, whether it’s with tacos, whether it’s with soul food, we always pair our beverages with food.


So, again, relaying that same message into a retail space by pairing the products by food stations and ambient places so it immediately catches the person’s eye so that they’re like, “Wow, I’m grabbing this cheeseburger; of course I’ve got to have a classic Coke to go with it.”


JOEY: Right.


TAYLOR: And then, lastly, having it as an impulse purchase as well and placing it in stations next to gum, chips, kind of grab and go areas like that.  So, again, kind of focusing back on entry points, by food stations and then of course by the check out.


JOEY: Yeah, very cool.  No, that’s interesting.  It’s so crazy how water has just – It’s just water, right?


TAYLOR: Right.


JOEY: But there’s so many ideas around it.  I just started drinking sparkling water probably two years ago and I started out with a different brand: La Croix, started out.  Now, I actually have two on my desk. Really, at the moment it’s – I like this –


TAYLOR: Oh, Perrier?


JOEY: Yeah, I have this Perrier and then I have this spring water.




JOEY: But when you think about it though, it’s like – Well, for me, instead of having some type of sugar, I want to have something that I still get the same effects of drinking a soda –


TAYLOR: Definitely.  Definitely. It’s the carbonation.


JOEY: Yeah.


TAYLOR: It’s the carbonation.


JOEY: Yeah.


TAYLOR: Because I have the same craving.  I really want something – I’m not a sweets person and I’ve never been a heavy pop drinker.  My go-to, if I’m going to have a pop is Sprite because it’s very light, but if I’m just craving and I’m like, “Man, I really want something,” I will go for a sparkling water and get a flavored one and it’s weird how – I think it’s more of a psychological thing –


JOEY: Yeah.


TAYLOR: – but it’s just really good.  The satisfaction is there.


JOEY: Yeah.  Well, you know, it’s interesting.  People don’t realize marketing – There’s so many different avenues with marketing.  I mean, just marketing water, like what we were talking about, it’s marketing to the right consumer and everyone’s different and people get – drinking a certain water gets a certain emotion that they get attached to it and especially with Coca-Cola, it’s definitely one of the biggest soda companies in the world.  I wouldn’t say, sorry, soda – Would you consider drink – Drink companies in the world.


So, I guess, let me veer for a second.  I know that you work at hospitals and hotels and different locations.  Do you have to change your approach, depending on what type of on-premise it is?


TAYLOR: Definitely because the product can be used in different ways, so immediate consumption at a fine dining restaurant in downtown Chicago is going to definitely be different than me selling it into the hospital.  SO, the approach, generally, with that is aesthetic and it’s generally less of a product – less product options. So, kind of touching on aesthetics – and this relates to hotels as well – Hotels are very competitive when it comes to food and beverage and I think mostly it’s because of how the hotels are changing, in terms of their operation.  


So, I manage – I don’t know, I might have 15 hotels that fall under my management alone and all of them are different, in terms of their operations.  Some may not have in-room dining or a mini-bar, some do. Some have gift shops, some don’t; some have restaurants and lobbies where you can hang out in all day and have grab and go sections and then some just have cute rooftop bars that people go to after 5 o’clock.  And so the whole approach is different and what it comes down to, especially within those channels and the restaurant channels is that it’s an aesthetic thing.


So, they want to know, “Is this going to look cute on a table when someone is having a big banquet wedding or some type of awards ceremony?  Is this going to make a lot of noise?” So, I think what’s interesting with the Coke company and the products that they have is that they kind of consider those things.  So, there’s a certain package that we have that are in the classic glass Coke bottle, which are very nostalgic, they’re smaller in portion size as well, and so that business or that product in general for the business does very well and most of it is sold at, again, the fine dining restaurants and the hotels and the lodging accounts because aesthetically it’s more pleasing and it’s smaller.  So, probably on the operational end for them, it might be a little bit more profitable as well. But, just from, if you can imagine a waiter or a waitress coming over and them setting that on a the table at a five start Michelin rated restaurant, that’s much more appropriate than them setting down a 20 ounce plastic bottle.


JOEY: Right.  Right.


TAYLOR: So, that has a lot to do with it, as well, but packaging plays a huge part in that conversation too, because with the water category – we talked about it earlier – my water does very well in my hospitals and my business professional offices because you think about the grabbing, the going, it’s in plastic, they can drop it, it’s not going to burst or anything, but in my hotels or my restaurants, it’s harder to get a plastic bottle on a white linen table because it doesn’t look as chic.  But, for them to sit a glass bottle on the table that maybe the competition is able to provide, that looks a lot nicer. So, I feel like that’s the biggest hurdle and the biggest challenge between those differentiated accounts, from my experience, it really comes down to the aesthetics of the packaging and the presentation: how you’re going to be able to offer that to the in consumer, is what it mostly comes down to.


JOEY: Right, right.  No, that makes complete sense, regarding the packaging.  And, really, if you think about it, the brand is the packaging; it’s not really what’s in the product because water is water.  I mean there’s obviously different tastes and things like that, different things you can do it, but it is amazing – There is a marketing strategy for it.


TAYLOR: Yeah, definitely.  Definitely. Because I can’t  – It wouldn’t make any sense for me and vice versa, it wouldn’t make any sense for me to sell 8 ounce glass bottles to customers at a hospital.  That’s not their consumer and that’s not the package that they would want. Not even 12 ounce. They’re the perfect customers for 20 ounce just because you think about the time spent at a hospital, so they’re probably consuming beverages a lot quicker than the average person because they are sitting in a place all day, the beverages are probably a little bit more – or excuse me, we call it sparkling – more sparkling versus still, which would be like water and juices and stuff because they’re just more attentive in the space and they’re trying to stay alert, maybe within the ER or for whatever type of activity has brought them there.  


So, the consumption is different amongst all those channels and so adjusting to it, when I first started, was very interesting because I’m like, “You know this brand.  I’m sure you buy this brand for your home. I know that you drink Dasani plastic bottles at home or barbeque, bring them into your restaurant,” and it’s like, “No.” After learning and really getting to know the customer and understanding their in consumer, it’s like at the end of the day, that doesn’t match with their aesthetic over all, so they wouldn’t be obliged to bring it in because they’re in, “I can’t really move it.  It wouldn’t look right being here,” no matter how much it costs, in their favor or not.


JOEY: Right, absolutely.  No, this is exciting.  This is great stuff. It’s interesting just how marketing there’s so many different channels and different ways to get to your consumer and how you can do things.  So, I really appreciate you jumping on here and hopefully we can do a follow up at some point down the road.


TAYLOR: Yeah, I would love that.  That would be awesome.


JOEY: Yeah, and hopefully we can meet up at some point, too.  I’ll hopefully be in Chicago at some point.


TAYLOR: Yeah, yeah, that would be dope.


JOEY: Awesome.  Well, thanks so much for joining the podcast.


TAYLOR: Thank you, Joey, I appreciate it.

JOEY: No problem.  If you like what we’re doing with Talk Experiential podcast, please make sure you five star it and review it.  Also, please share it on Facebook and Twitter or any other social media outlets. Please, tell your friends who you think that will get value out of our podcasts.  Your support will help continue the success of Talk Experiential.

Find the list of full Talk Experiential episodes here.

Reach out to Taylor via her social channels Facebook, Twitter, blog, Instagram.

Episode #23 Using Trends and Insights to Build Actionable Data-Driven Results

Our talk with Brett Hyman of NVE Experience Agency brings us to discuss how agencies can make the shift in becoming provocateurs of culture.The full transcript for Talk Experiential episode #23 Using Trends and Insights to Build Actionable Data-Driven Results is followed below.

#23 Using Trends and Insights to Build Actionable Data-Driven Results

Brett Hyman on episode #23 of Talk Experiential.

JOEY: Welcome back to the next Talk Experiential podcast.  I’ve got a great guest, Brett Hyman, from Beverly Hills, California.  He owns NVE Experience Agency. Thanks for joining.

BRETT: Hey, yes, great to meet you.  Thanks for having me.

JOEY: Yeah, no, it’s awesome.  We have a little weather here.  We’ve had our first freeze here in Denver.  I’m sure it’s pretty nice out there for you.

BRETT: Well, you know, it’s a little bit colder than normal.  I think it’s 71 degrees and sunny, instead of 72, but we’ll get through it, if we can, here in Beverly Hills.

JOEY: Right?  Oh man. We’d love to learn about your background and what is NVE Experience Agency and how you started it.

BRETT: Well, I started the agency in a few different incarnations.  Immediately after graduating college, I had decided to venture into L.A.’s night life business, which is not necessarily what my mother or father wanted to hear after going to a four year university.  However, it was definitely a great exposure to the hospitality nightlife marketing and promotional world in Los Angeles.

And so, the first version of NVE was actually called Night Vision Entertainment and we built a large scale nightlife company here in L.A that developed very big marketing efforts for all the top nightlife companies here in L.A., in Vegas, ultimately expanding to New York and Miami, as well.  But, being in L.A.’s nightlife business is the networking super highway. You meet amazingly connected CEOs and agents and heads of studios. So, we really jumped right in from doing that to starting to do premiers and all different types of large scale production.

So, phase two of Night Vision was developing a production arm, and that was all the nuts and bolts of event production: lighting, sound, stage décor, operations, staffing, catering, and everything in between in order to help produce different types of events such as premiers, private parties, celebrity events, all different types of music launches, video game launches, all the awards show events, etcetera, etcetera.  And then about five years ago was when I really shifted from the ‘what’ to the ‘why.’ We knew what the product was, in terms of event production, but we started to ask, “What is the context? What are the goals? What are the objectives that our clients would like us to achieve?” and that’s when we transformed what was known as Night Vision Entertainment into NVE Experience Agency, and layered on a full blown marketing agency service along with the event production service.  

And now, that’s how really NVE operates, as these two somewhat distinct businesses and experiential marketing agency and an event production company, merged and fused together into one holistic brand influenced agency.  That’s what we are.

JOEY: Very cool.  No, it sounds like a pretty exciting experience, starting out just doing your nightlife to – I like how you put it, you switched it from the ‘what’ to the ‘why,’ because once you start learning why we’re doing this and what the clients are for, it sounds like it’s a little bit more engaging and you get to the right target market.

BRETT: Well, we got to a place where many brands started coming to us, especially because we were in L.A., and they were like, “Our boss told us to throw this elaborate party,” and we would start to ask what was the objective?  And sometimes – For a long time, that gold standard was PR. It was, “We want PR for our brand or for our product or for our service,” and then things started shifting. People started to realize that they wanted a social and a different influence online, posting content, etcetera.  Other people are starting to ask us to help create better word of mouth buzz, and as we started to understand the ‘why,’ we realized we should probably start there so we could better engineer the precise vehicle we would use, in order to achieve that objective. Maybe it’s not always the ultimate rager party or red carpet that is the solution to achieve that objective.  And, we simultaneously brought in our understanding of the marketing – the experiential vehicle – as well as the portfolio of offerings we could have, beyond just a red carpet event, we expanded into trade shows, corporate meetings, corporate hospitality, destination management, traditional red carpet events, mobile tours, and things like that.

JOEY: Oh, very cool.  So, it sounds like you guys kind of do the full gauntlet, a full service agency, anything from a physical side to tying it into a digital piece.

BRETT: Yeah, definitely.

JOEY: Awesome.  Very cool.

BRETT: Yeah.

JOEY: What are some of the – Do you have any big ones that you’ve been working on or ones that you’re able to talk about?

BRETT: You know, we work with a really large variety of brands across a very big portfolio of industries.  We definitely have our foot in the entertainment business because we’re right here in L.A., however, we expanded our offices to New York about three years ago and do a lot of work in fashion and beauty as well and music there, particularly with groups like Pandora or Billboard.  

And then, simultaneously, we work with Amazon Studios, here in L.A., Anheuser Busch, we have a tremendous amount of work with Diageo, which owns a massive amount of liquor companies and liquor brands, so we really do pride ourselves on kind of running the gamut of different types of industries.  And also, that helps inform us and give us better perspective so we can have better ideas. And even working in tech does help us influence how we’re going to deal with a music event. Working in the gaming business and video games does help us understand what we’re going to do across a wider entertainment portfolio of brands.  So, having that background is really exciting for us and very valuable to many of our different clients.

JOEY: Right and I’m sure every client is different, too, of how you have to approach them, from a tech company to a drink type of company.  I’m sure just with that type of experience that you have to figure out exactly what they’re looking for and figure out their story.

BRETT: Right.

JOEY: And with what you’re doing, experiential marketing – I guess, let’s talk about just general experiential marketing.  I mean, obviously, it sounds like you guys are growing. What are you seeing with brands? Are you seeing a lot more people – a lot more companies trying to get out of the mess of online and trying to get more in experiential or how are you seeing it?

BRETT: Yeah.  I think that a couple things have happened that have super charged the power of experiential marketing in the past few years, and in no particular order.  First and foremost, brands are looking for effective marketing vehicles to align their product with the values of their consumers and their target demographic consumer, right?

So, for a long time you had things like the television commercial, the radio ad, the print media ad, and magazine, and those were always an attempt for brands to find their consumer, align with them on a cultural level, and then try to tell a story that made them ultimately want to act, feel, or do something about a product.  It’s the reason why brands would buy a Super Bowl ad or it’s the reason why a fashion brand might buy an ad in Vogue, right? They would look to that. They know that their demographic is culturally there.

However, all of those forms of marketing have become substantially less effective.  Between ad blockers online, the DVR ability to skip television ads, and the slow and imminent death of print media in a lot of ways, there aren’t a lot of avenues anymore for brands to find their demographic and align with them and at least authentically.  We can definitely explode pop-up ads in their face whenever we want, but that’s probably not going to move the needle on a cultural level.

Experiential simultaneously has experienced a whole lot of tools that actually supercharges effectiveness.  We can now actually capture data through brand experiences, we can harness that data and understand it and analyze it, and we can do a really amazing job of quantifying the effectiveness of a brand experience.  So, first we can know a lot more about the people attending and what that experience is influencing. And, on a secondary level, we can amplify that brand narrative to exponentially larger audiences that may not even be in the same country as the event’s location.  

So, those two big changes in the market forces behind marketing allow experiential to become a extremely potent form of marketing that simultaneously can be measured and quantified and justified probably above a lot of other forms of marketing.  So, NVE’s real goal is to look at how that industry is changing and bring in resources and perspectives that will allow us to harness that power and utilize it to help our brands propel forward.

JOEY: Right.  No, that’s great.  I mean I like what you were saying about being able to really capture the right data so you’re going to learn more, because I think people don’t understand, too, creating these experiences are on the fly, on the go, but also it’s learning how people are going to actually engage with it.  But, being able to learn through these, you’re going to be able to actually grow it faster, so I think that’s pretty awesome.

BRETT: Yeah.

JOEY: One of the notes that I saw here – I know the concept of an agency versus doing this in-house.  I guess let’s talk a little bit around there, kind of like – Agencies, obviously, have a bad rap, right?

BRETT: Sure.

JOEY: We’re expensive – But, kind of your words, how do you take those type of questions of which direction a brand should go?

BRETT: Well, so I have a lot of perspective on this and, first and foremost, what we do and what even the concept of quote unquote in-house management of experiential is – they’re just two different products.  We are out there investing in enormous amounts of R&D and I mean actual physical R&D like what tools can we create or find or embrace that will create better experiences for our clients and simultaneously being out there – NVE being out there, being exposed to a wide variety of brands and their activations and what works and what doesn’t work, allow us to just have such a broad and diverse perspective on what types of programs are out there and can be created and how to best make them both efficient and effective.  

I’m not saying it’s impossible to do it in-house, I’m saying it sure is hard and it really does require you to actually build a functional in-house agency.  And when people – If they appoint an internal person or even an internal 10 people as the in-house quote unquote agency, I don’t know if they’re doing all of the extra work that needs to be done to deliver world class experiential programming, because there’s just only so much bandwidth that that number of people can do, whereas here, we meet weekly, across many different departments to discuss how to make our programs more effective, more streamlined, what new technologies are out there, and then share that information across our portfolio of clientele to help them all achieve success.  

So, can it be done in-house?  Absolutely. People can definitely [0:12:51.3] execute in house but what we can bring to the table, I think, is – the proof is 100% in the pudding when you see the just actual work product that comes out of us working from an ideation perspective and an execution perspective.  

JOEY: Right, well and why not let the experts do it, especially if you’re working with all these other brands.  It makes more sense. And I think, too, one thing that is obviously challenging is, like I said, is it’s a lot of moving parts on a physical level but it’s not cheap, you know?  Not a start up can usually spend hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars on a program but making sure that it’s the right audience and the right type of brand to get out there is key.  

So, here’s another question.  How do you build a better experience for someone?  There’s a lot – Experiential marketing is growing, especially if you go to a festival or an event.  You’re competing against other brands. Let’s talk through some of the ideas. How are you going to grab someone’s attention to love someone’s brand and be [0:13:59.8] for the future?

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BRETT: Well, we look at the idea of creating – breaking through the noise of these very noisy cultural temples in a lot of – through a few different prisms.  But, the primary lens that we think makes an experiential program effective begins with are you authentically, culturally aligning with this consumer with demographic?  The old model of experiential and many of the legacy agencies – when they are asked, “Hey, bring us to South by Southwest,” or, “Bring us to Coachella,” they kind of just Google, “What is Coachella?” and start building programs.

JOEY: Right.

BRETT: NVE has a very deep cultural insights process where we understand what that demographic is, and we develop a way to synthesize a narrative that will align with them and resonate with them and then we build the program around that.  I think that going to some of these big cultural temples is like showing up at the World Series with an amateur team. And, for us, we very much pride ourselves on the ability to understand and have empathy across a very wide variety of cultural pillars, whether it’s cultural pillars within tech, or within sports, within the gaming industry or music and fashion and the entertainment business, and helping potentially even spot trends before they’re happening and align brands with those top tier influence creators.  And the issue of that is, is that it requires a tremendous amount of trust from our brand partners and our clients.

We need them to trust because they may not be as culturally aware what’s going on in the micro level in the sneaker business, for example, which has all of these highly captive subcultures that are engaging with everything from a new Yeezy to everything – the new Jordans that Nike might release.  So, we ask our brands to trust us. It’s not an easy endeavor but we provide them with a lot of insight and analysis behind who their demographic is and how we can better align them within that area and we hope that they will trust us to do that. That’s how you break through the noise; it’s not just showing up and doing what other people are doing or other people have done.  It’s understanding who that subculture audience is.

JOEY: Right, and learning who that client is and then going deeper, sounds so key.

BRETT: Yeah.

JOEY: Let’s go to another topic and sorry I’m just asking a lot of questions here.  It’s very interesting.

BRETT: Sure.  

JOEY: So, let’s talk about just culture right now, where everything’s at.  I mean just this weekend, we had a lot going on – it’s October 9th – from the Kavanaugh case to sports.  One particular that I’m thinking around is Nike, how they’re taking a risk.  They’ve taken a risk on taking a stand. I’d love to hear your thoughts through that.  Do you think what they did was a good move or did you feel like it almost kind of shut down half the country from taking their stand?

BRETT: Yeah, I have a very, very specific perspective on branding.  And just talking about branding, I believe that it is critically important that the consumer understands what a brand stands for.  If Nike had not taken that stand, I’d love to know what would have been negative for them. I don’t know if their – A lot of people – There’s been a hundred stories about did Nike write off a big percentage of their consumer or of the country or whatever.  I don’t believe it’s half the country. I don’t even know if it’s honestly 5% of the country but I think the narrative should be, “Did Nike embrace 70% of the world? Did Nike embrace their consumer in a way that is more positive?”

And to be honest, that’s the narrative that – And that’s the truth of what did happen.  Nike and Adidas and Under Armour and some of these extraordinary athletic brands, they’re battling over a very captive audience of people.  I don’t think they’re as concerned with the person who buys one pair of Nikes a year and decides to also fundamentally disagree with the idea that they believe in, free speech or right to expression.  They are interested in the people that are watching Colin Kaepernick and do want to know where Nike stands and do want to know where Adidas stands and Nike came to the table first and took a stand and said, “We want to make sure you know where we stand,” and to bring it kind of home.  

Post the Kavanaugh hearings or during the Kavanaugh hearings – I think it was maybe last Monday, before his confirmation – Bumble took out a full page in I believe New York Times, might have been Wall Street Journal, but turns out a full page, beautiful ad that just says, “Believe women,” And what does that do to Bumble?  Well, it might isolate some people that obviously are supporters of a more conservative supreme court justice getting nominated but simultaneously, it most definitely solidified and clarified where they stand on the issue and they embraced that very important audience that is probably much more loyal and probably, as net promoters, worth of a hell of a lot more money to them than people that they’re isolating.  

So, I think it’s not just about – I don’t think it’s about isolating a portion of your demographic as it is important is it to embrace a big portion of your demographic.  So, I highly – I agree wholeheartedly with those messages and the idea that we really want to know where our brands stand and it’s because not of the fringe people but because of the people that are in the middle that these brands are fighting over.  And you can take the Pepsi example that happened last year where they had that Kendall Jenner commercial where she gave the Pepsi to the policeman in the middle of a riot and it was very racially insensitive, you knew where they stood too, right? And that, of course, was the complete opposite of Coca-Cola’s messaging which is very sincerely and authentically about inclusivity.  So, you can see when it also can work against you, but in the instance of these other people, I don’t think it did.

JOEY: Yeah, and I guess I’m bringing this up, too, because I think it’s something that’s more accepting in our culture and I think brands are almost becoming almost a human, in a way.  I don’t feel like five years ago brands would pick a hard stand on – depending on what it is but – a hard stand on exactly what they’re kind of focusing on. But, if you could get away from the noise of what you believe in – I think it’s wonderful, what they’re doing, as a brand.  It’s obviously, “Okay, these guys are doing something that no one is doing,” and like you said, taking a captive audience. And the people that aren’t buying shoes are the ones that are probably complaining, as well.

BRETT: Well, one big area that we are focused on as well is how that kind of translates for us is we’re not out telling brands to be political.  We are telling brands that they need to be better patrons of culture. That’s our phrase here at NVE, which means if they are going to embrace culture and these cultural elements that are deeply important to their demographics and to their consumers, then somebody needs to help guide them to ensure how can they be better patrons of that culture.  

We met with several people that we think are doing very interesting stuff, across various industries, across music and fashion and art.  We call them provokers here at NVE and we can talk about the difference between a provoker and what some people may deem an influencer and there’s a big difference.  But, one universal phrase that we’re hearing is – Back in the days of Michelangelo and Picasso, you had kings and queens and major religions that were artists’ patrons, right?  The aristocracy would support art in a huge way. They would become these major patrons. Well, we don’t have that anymore. What we have now is brands and brands have to act as the patrons and it’s in everyone’s best interest because the brands want to align more authentically with consumers and simultaneously, consumers want their provokers of culture to continue to make and create.  So, NVE spends a lot of time with our clients helping them become better patrons of culture and navigating that and we do that by acting as less of an executor and as a counselor , and that’s one of our big narratives, which is the difference between just an executor and an agency. So, we help them a lot with that.

JOEY: Very cool.  I’m glad we connected, I’m glad I’ve got you on our podcast.  I know that we’re kind of running out of time. I know we could talk for hours, here.

BRETT: Sure.

JOEY: I’d love to meet you in person at some point and have you on another podcast.

BRETT: Yeah, absolutely.  I appreciate it and you bet I can talk experiential for many hours and it’s really because experiential is intercepting with so many aspects and so many vehicles of marketing, from influencer marketing to digital marketing to the ad world and we have to basically become experts in all these ancillary extensions of the experiential world, which is fine, I love it, but it’s why it’s gone from being a single book of experiential to encyclopedias and volumes of information about how our entire industry will function.

JOEY: Yeah.  No, absolutely.  And, especially, I think people don’t realize it’s having that experience over lots of brands and over years and years of doing this and really trying to connect your clients with audiences.  I think that’s pretty amazing and it’s pretty cool what you’ve built. Congrats.

BRETT: Well, I appreciate it.  We have a whole lot more to do and we’re excited.  I think we already have a tremendous amount of things mapped out for 2019, including we talk a lot about how we think about the measurement and quantification of experiential and us and a professor at Harvard Business School think we’ve solved the equation, mathematically, on how to better measure and quantify experiential marketing, so we’re coming out with just a lot of great stuff in 2019 that supports all the aspects of how experiential influences culture, how we can better harness the power of creators and influencers, how we can measure the results from a data and analytics perspective, how we can integrate interactive technologies into experiences, and so much more.  So, stay tuned for all that.

JOEY: Will do.  Well, we’ll have another podcast for that too, at some point.  So, well thanks, man. I appreciate all your time.

BRETT: Thank you.  Absolutely.


JOEY: Take care.  If you like what we’re doing with Talk Experiential podcast, please make sure you five star it and review it.  Also, please share on Facebook and Twitter or any other social media outlets. Please, tell your friends who you think will get value out of our podcast.  Your support will help continue the success of Talk Experiential.



Find the list of full Talk Experiential episodes here.



Episode #22 How Brands Diversify Through Multiple Channels

Our talk with Dan Golden of Be Found Online brings us to discuss how brands can diversify through multiple channels. The full transcript for Talk Experiential episode #22 How Brands Diversify Through Multiple Channels is followed below.

#22 How Brands Diversify Through Multiple Channels

Dan Golden on episode #22 of Talk Experiential.

JOEY:                         Welcome back to another Talk Experiential podcast.  We got Dan Golden from greater Chicago running a pretty cool company in Chicago.  How you doing?


DAN:                          Doing well.  Happy Friday.


JOEY:                         Happy Friday.  Happy Friday.


DAN:                          Unless this gets published on, like, a Tuesday, in which case, happy Tuesday.

JOEY:                         You know, it could be a Tuesday, or a Friday, you know — hopefully it’ll be published soon.


DAN:                          All right, sounds good.


JOEY:                         Well, cool, Dan.  Why don’t you tell us about yourself?


DAN:                          Tell us about Dan?


JOEY:                         Tell me about Dan.


DAN:                          President and Chief Search Artist of Be Found Online.  I wrote a great digital agency.  We’ve got offices in Chicago, London, opening one in Florida soon, Singapore, Belize.  But Chicago’s the hub and we’ve been at it for about 10 years.  We do everything other than build websites when it comes to digital.


My lens, I think, on experiential marketing, I think, has really changed over the last decade, as I went from being that digital whippersnapper, or the search marketer who scored everything that couldn’t be measured at the same level that we grew up tracking digital advertising.  And I’ve been converted.


You know, as we think about what customers care about and what is an impression — I think that’s one question we’re often tackling.  Like, what’s the value of an impression in search, an online video, if you don’t — if you’re not listening to it.  Viewability.  There’s so many different questions, trying to quantify the value of a brand impression and interaction, and that’s where I think the experiential comes in.  Even if it’s one touchpoint.  The value of that experience or depth of that experience is certainly at another level than did you see a banner ad.


JOEY:                         Right.  I’m sure you’ve seen it over the years, too, just doing digital marketing and almost bring it into a digital world, too, right?  You know, just how people click around.  Instead of just clicking on a banner ad, click on something that they like that kind of hits their focal point and whatnot.


Regarding growing your business, digital marketing — how have you seen the landscape change over the years?


DAN:                          It’s noisier, and I think marketers say the same thing every year, and it’s true every year.  The multitude of channels and the battle that we all have for attention.  The complexity of having a strategy that spans Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Google, display networks, content marketing, native ads.  It’s like playing whack-a-mole and to have a cohesive strategy and a cohesive customer experience, as we’re targeting across all these different channels, it’s gotten harder to wrangle that stuff in and truly be an expert in each one of them, right?


As an agency owner, we’ve kind of grown horizontally as we offer more services, because we grew up in search and search is still a critical channel for every client we work with, but that’s one of those things and why I’m a believer in experiential and offline experiences that —


You know, I grew up in the demand capture business, and we could squeeze as much out of that sponge as possible, and that was kind of our secret sauce, why we grew so fast, is getting really good at capturing and converting demand.  We work with a lot of brands where I’m like there’s a limit to how much you can get out of search and capturing these demands.  You have to actually create demand and experiences and remind people about the brand even if it isn’t a direct response message.  I’ve truly learned the value of all the other touch points.  Even the ones I know nothing about.


JOEY:                         Right.  Obviously you’ve built a pretty cool company. I mean, you guys are international now.  Worldwide.  Over the years, when you said it gets — it’s noisier — talk a little bit real quick regarding the demand capture, reminding people —


I know with marketing, just to get someone excited about it — or, at least, really remembering your brand, you need at least five to 12 touchpoints at some level to actually build that trust.  What are the kind of things you’re seeing some of these brands are having to do these days to fight the noise?


DAN:                          One of the challenges is you have to be relevant to each platform.  You can certainly take one subject or type of content or content theme or campaign, whatever you want to call it, but you can’t just spray and pray.  Like, it — your creative on Instagram has to very much fit that format.


I think we’re years passed the old let’s just take our TV spots and run them on YouTube, right?  That stuff doesn’t work either.  You need to think about different formats, you need to tell a story in six seconds or convince someone to continue watching in three seconds.  So, the formats are very different.  Even if it’s one cohesive message you’re trying to convey as a brand, there’s still, you know, the challenge of telling that story in a bunch of different platforms.  When you think about mobile consumption and mobile attention span relative to desktop and some of those more interactive experiences, it’s all about these tiny little moments and pockets of attention that brands need to capitalize on, and it differs across platforms.


JOEY:                         Right, platforms and clients too, right?


DAN:                          Yeah.  In terms of growing our business, I’ve always gone where the food is.  We haven’t built our own technology or spent three years working on something we hoped to offer.  It’s all very demand driven, and as these platforms have popped up over the years — you know, a few years back, there were no Pinterest experts in my team.  We had an opportunity, there was a beta on — you know, as their platform is coming together and I heard from some folks on the team, like, well, how can we sell this, we’ve never done it?  I’m like nobody’s done it and our clients haven’t done it and no other agencies have done it, and we’re —


Like, believe in yourself that you can figure this stuff out, and test and learn quick, and you can become an expert.  Right now, we’re doing a ton on voice search and the conversational experience between brands and their customers, and how do you personalize a brand experience at scale.  This stuff is moving so quickly — I mean, that’s the fun in all of that, is figuring out what’s next and just having the confidence that — certainly, there’s plenty of things that agencies need to do and stay within their wheelhouse, to not say yes to everything, and I’ve always been committed to not doing things that we suck at and faking it, which is why we always like to have partners or partners like you if we need a client that needed an experiential campaign, but yeah, it’s move quick and figure stuff out.  The clients we work best with are not afraid to fail here and there as you’re trying out new channels.  That’s kind of having that risk tolerance — I think it’s key to being successful.


JOEY:                         I love it.  You’re literally taking the entrepreneur approach, one, and you kind of have to, in — I feel like digital or a growing agency, you have to stay on top of where consumers are going, or consumers are even on a B2B level.  What are people using.  Because you can’t be stagnant.  I see a lot of agencies, even big ones, that go down the same line and don’t even understand what Snapchat is.


We had a meeting with a potential client — we had a digital client partner — we were launching a brand here in Denver, and they couldn’t even explain the GPS tracking location for the filters.  It’s definitely interesting and to your point, too, one, no one else is doing it, so let’s just learn it and provide it.  Typically you’re going to have success on that.


DAN:                          Yeah, and there’s always a balance between chasing — I mean, I call a lot of things bright shiny objects, right?  You have to balance chasing after those things and getting ahead of what’s next with driving revenue tomorrow.


You can’t gamble with 50% of your budget, but you probably should be gambling and testing out with 10% of your budget, you know?  It’s easy to say that, and I also empathize with the position a lot of our clients are in, right?  When you’re answering to the CFO and you’ve got quarterly revenue targets you have to hit, you can’t divert all your attention to shiny objects, but at the same time, you have to be pushing the needle and trying new things.


If you rest on your laurels, those channels dry up, right?


JOEY:                         Right.


DAN:                          We work with a lot of clients that come to us and they’re either too dependent on Google or they built their brand through Facebook and costs are going up and they need to diversify and have new channels.  Most brands we work with have a winner or a couple of channels that work really well for them, and that’s scary, right?


If you’re relying on one channel or platform or even just two channels and platforms — like, Google and Facebook change the rules like that.  You have to be ready to pivot on a dime.  You don’t want to be starting your testing when the ball drops.  You want to have some emerging channels to shift to in a more practical way or less risky way versus starting from scratch when you’re up against the wire.


JOEY:                         You brought up a good point.  I do see brands — seeing them focus on one channel and building their entire everything on that one channel and then they’re like yeah — your target market’s on this channel and it’s a huge lift — how do you approach those type of clients that are single-minded focused and you’re like dude, you guys need to find other ways to get in?


DAN:                          Yeah, I mean, it’s that.  It usually helps to say the word dude, to kind of break things down, to be like you have to.  It’s great that you’ve had this success on — there’s some amazing brands that have not spent a whole lot of media and built their brands on Instagram, and that’s awesome, and I don’t — you know, I don’t want to take away from that, because it’s hard, and there’s plenty of brands that try and do that and aren’t successful, but you got to be thinking about what’s next and where there’s scale, right?  And a lot of that happens beyond the digital world, whether it’s experiential marketing or even TV.


There’s brands where I see — again, as the digital agency guy, where it’s like you need to create some bigger demand if you want to scale at the rate your investors need you to.  If you really want to go after scale, some of these other channels definitely make sense.


JOEY:                         That’s good.  Digital marketing, obviously, is something that’s a need.  Especially in experiential marketing, when we do a physical program, we have to tie it into digital, because it’s stupid if you don’t.  I’m just real about it.  We hand out naked juice or some type of product — you can’t just hand it to them and they be excited about it.  Why don’t you extend that engagement?  I guess on a digital side, do you focus more on a consumer level or B2B?


DAN:                          The answer’s yes.  We do both.  I mean, we have some — I think a lot of the digital marketing tactics are very portable.  Certainly there’s audience targeting and there’s a very different approach between B2C and B2B, but when you think about it from a platform and time and consumption standpoint, you’ve got a CMO that spends 30 minutes a month on LinkedIn and 30 hours a month on Facebook, right?


LinkedIn is a much more targeted platform, but there isn’t as much time spent, so there’s — I think there’s a big crossover between B2B and B2C, and a lot of the same — it’s a lot of the same channels and tactics, it’s just targeting and the creative approach which is different.


JOEY:                         Talking about BFO and how you’ve grown it — what’s your role?  Is it a sales kind of role?


DAN:                          Chief Executive and —


JOEY:                         I know it’s everything.


DAN:                          A bit of everything, so —


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DAN:                          Over the last couple of years, my role has solidified a little bit more.  And it’s more to be the external face of BFO.  Doing podcasts like these, getting out there, talking to folks, talking to other agencies and finding out what’s next in the marketplace, right?  What we need to be offering in the years to come and who we need to be partnering with for marketing channels that fall outside our wheelhouse.


It’s a fun role and certainly I’m not too detached from what’s going on here, but promoted some folks that are running a lot of the day to day and doing a great job and freeing myself and my cofounder Steve up to get out there and find new opportunities and represent the brand.


JOEY:                         Then it goes back to experiential marketing in a way.  Now you’re actually experiencing — we’ve met before.  Well, no, I’ve known you for a while, because you’re the bright orange guy online.  You just stick out like a sore thumb.


DAN:                          In a good way.


JOEY:                         I mean, we went out in Chicago and what were you wearing?  Like, cat pants?


DAN:                          Oh, the cat pants?  Yes.  The epic — well, the story was my cat — cat rest his soul — cat pants was our original BFO mascot, and some folks at the office were reminiscing about cat pants and ordered me these wonderful spandex cat pants that showed up on my desk about a month later.  I think they had forgot they had ordered it, because I’m pretty sure they were here drinking late one night, but yes.  Let me tell you, they’re comfortable.  Spandex cat pants from China?  Highly recommended.  Just saying.


JOEY:                         Look, we were playing shuffle — what was it?  Shuffleboard or something?


DAN:                          Yeah, yeah.


JOEY:                         They looked great.  I mean, they looked comfortable, I guess.  I wouldn’t say great.  You definitely stuck out like a sore thumb.  I mean, you’re almost experiential marketing in itself.  You kind of are out there.


DAN:                          It is.


JOEY:                         In a good way.


DAN:                          In a good way.  I mean, you have to break through, right?  From an agency standpoint, we’re all data driven, we all — there’s so many clichés that are common, repeated.  To break through and — I hate to say it, but an orange jacket — and I love orange, so it’s not disingenuous.


JOEY:                         Me too.


DAN:                          But little things like that that help a brand stick out are — it works.  There’s a positive ROI to it.  The experiential marketing campaign I’ve always wanted to do for BFO — I would call it the worst experiential marketing campaign ever, because a lot of the work we do is not sexy.  We’ve got a team that is really good at math and they play with spreadsheets and machine learning algorithms and segmentation of campaigns.  A lot of the stuff we do to host people is the boring, hard work that a lot of brands can’t do in-house or a lot of agencies can’t do in-house.


My thought is to get a group of our analysts, to put some desks at a street festival or at Lollapalooza, Burning Man — I wouldn’t do that, but — take it out of context, and just have them do a day of work optimizing client campaigns at an outdoor event and have it be the BFO experience.


The actual experience itself, I think, would be awful, and henceforth it would be the worst experiential marketing campaign ever, right?  Someone walking by, they’re like why the hell are these people working here?  But the tagline at the end, because this would all be great video content, is BFO, we do the hard work to make you money while you’re out having fun.


That’s really what we do.  That’s our brand promise.  A lot of clients rely on us to be watching the clock and looking at the campaigns and spend and moving all the levers while they’re focusing on their business.


That’s my digital marketing experiential campaign that would, in some cases be the worst, but I think the angle could really tell our story in terms of what we do day in and day out.


JOEY:                         I think it’s awesome.  It sounds pretty cool.  Kind of going back to experiences, you can bring an experience to a digital world.  You know, it’s really — as you know, it’s evoking an emotion.  Like oh, that’s stupid, but — well, they wouldn’t think it’s stupid, because they would just think it’s interesting, I think.


Like, oh, okay, I can rely on them while I have fun and trust them, you know?


DAN:                          Yeah.  I think someone who saw the video would get it.  I think someone who saw — like, why are these guys sitting at a desk in the middle of the street while we’re all out here drunk — they wouldn’t get it but that’s fine.  I don’t think I’ve ever closed any business at a street festival so —


JOEY:                         Right.  So, you live near Wrigley’s Field.  You’re blocks from there, aren’t you?


DAN:                          I’m blocks from there.  It’s a hop and a skip.  It’s a great example.  The park at Wrigley, they built this new outdoor — it’s got a field, there’s these fountains that my kids trounce around in.  There’s a big screen.  They do movies during the day, and it was called The Park at Wrigley, and about a month ago they finally branded it.  It’s Gallagher Way.  Gallagher is an insurance company, and I had never heard of them, and I was so — when it was announced we’re like there’s no way.  We’re all going to call it the park.  Nobody’s going to call it — a month later, we’re all like let’s go to Gallagher Way.


It is commonplace and I was noticing the other day that my brand recognition of Gallagher and what they do has gone up exponentially.  As a marketer, when you see marketing working on you, it’s like — you’re like they got me.  But it does — I mean, planting seeds, it works.


I have another fun example.  I was with some friends.  We went on the Bourbon Trail around Kentucky, checking out a bunch of different distilleries, and one of my good friends — he’s a sax player out of Nashville — Evan Cobb, you should get his latest album, Hot Chicken.  Good stuff.  He really wanted to go to Woodford Reserve.  That was high on his list.  We were there and they were playing Kind of Blue, Miles Davis, the quintessential jazz album most people have heard even if you’re not into it and he was like whoa, they’re playing jazz here?  And we asked one of the people working here and she’s like oh, yeah, well, we’ve really been targeting the jazz listening audience, and it was at that point when he was like it worked.  I’m totally their demographic, they’ve been targeting me and that has to be why I really wanted to go to Woodford.  He didn’t even drink it all that much.


As a marketer, I know we’re always tough to sell to, but it’s funny when you kind of realize those moments, when you make those connections.  Why did I think about this, or why is this brand in my consideration set and sure enough, there’s been touch points along the way that weren’t the last click that you clicked on before you bought something.


JOEY:                         What you guys do is — I almost think it’s an experiential marketing, just because you are evoking an emotion.  First off, how the hell are you going to get someone to click on a button?  That’s a feat in itself.  And then especially —


DAN:                          Not only click on a button, but click on a button after providing your information that you know someone is going to call you back and try and sell you shit.  It’s the art of persuasion.  The brand experience of building trust and providing the carrot on the other end of that lead form.  All of that stuff matters.


As B2B marketers, when marketing for B2B clients or agencies, there’s — I kind of have to wear two hats.  I’m wearing one right now.  The direct marketer that wants leads, performance, accountability for every dollar that’s being spent, but at the same time when you’re asking for that lead or requested proposal, whatever that is, I want someone to have seen positive content.  We win awards.  There’s all sorts of good news and stuff that isn’t a direct call to action.  Once people have seen that multiple times in the back of their mind, it has built up that trust.


I think a lot of what we do in the digital world — there’s certainly conversion, but you’re building trust, so when you’re finally asked for that form or asked for the sale or asked to give a demo — whatever that call to action is — you’ve built trust in the brand and you do that through a landing page experience, through content marketing to talk about — it can’t all be direct response, right?


If you’re saying — I — and there’s plenty of agencies and brands out there where every piece of content at the end of the day is trying to sell me something, and it’s really easy to see through that, and consumers are becoming smarter, and on all of these digital platforms there’s a barrage of content.  When we started doing Facebook ads, there was a 100x increase in the number of brands and content marketers.  There’s so much out there.  It’s a battle for attention.  Brands have to be a lot more respectful of their customer and prospect’s time.  You got to give out value and all of that stuff adds up over time when you’re finally ready to try and make the sale.


JOEY:                         I was just at Outdoor Retailer — it moved from Utah to Denver, so I was just here this week and I was talking to some folks about — a brand almost is a person now.  Especially how one, there’s so much out there, and they almost have to take a stance.  I mean, the one that I can think of is WeWork.  They are now not allowing their internal employees to expense meat, and it’s interesting, right?  Some people are like that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and they’re going to be pissed off about it, but the other side is their target market is millennials and they’re helping the earth and kind of going down that route.


It’s definitely interesting how brands are taking a whole different approach on what they stand for.  It can be either good or bad, right, for the brand?


DAN:                          Yeah, right.  It’s risky.  There’s some brands that do an amazing job of taking some of those calculated risks, even if they’re taking a polarizing position.  Ben and Jerry’s, courageous brand in a lot of ways, but I also know they’re very calculated in the stances that they take.


I can’t say I’m really going out on a limb, but I started Employers for VTO.  We closed our office on election day in 2016.  I’m actually joining forces with ElectionDay.org this year, and I’m trying to get every one of our clients and partners and vendors to close on Election Day and make it a national holiday.


JOEY:                         Very cool.


DAN:                          Yeah, if it’s not going to — I’m not going to repeat all the stats, but most people that don’t vote do it because they’re too busy at work.  Number one, right?  That’s one easy thing companies can do to help take a stand, help people get engaged civically.  Yeah, I mean, I think brands —


You got to be careful it’s not green washing or we did one charity event and then we’re going to promote the heck out of it for the next three months.  It’s really easy, I think, for people to see through what’s not genuine or what’s — I would say lame — attempts at using philanthropy to drum up business, but people, and especially millennials, want to work with brands that share their values.  I think there’s a lot of opportunities — and there’s ROI on that.  I’m actually working on a couple different studies to try and quantify that and really figure out how running a conscious business — there’s a lot of ways it pays dividends, but from a marketing standpoint, how do you tell your brand story in a way people care about and believe in?


JOEY:                         Absolutely.  That’s really interesting.  I think, too, just back to your Election Day — you know, it just helps change as well.  You know, get people involved in caring about something.  Bringing your values to something you care about.  For me, I care about a lot out there, but if my thing is — if I can’t change it, I’m not going to be so pushy over it.  Me, myself.


Reality is reality.  Where things are at.  But if you can kind of help push that, I think that’s better.


Really quick, I wanted to ask you about Shaq and the Super Bowl.


DAN:                          I did give you a preview of my favorite experiential marketing — I guess being on this side of the fence.  But yeah, I was at the — this was not the good Super Bowl, it was the one the Seahawks lost to the Patriots, whenever that was.  A few years back.  2015, maybe.


Yeah, I got hooked up to the Budweiser Whatever, Whenever experience, and they took over a parking lot in downtown Phoenix and there were boats and there were — they put sand all over the whole thing.  I could tell this was a whole — it’s very obviously a branded event.  It was kind of Budweiser everything, but free beer, free food, all that stuff was pretty cool.


My favorite part of this whole thing was there was a big throne and there were a bunch of paint easels set up around the throne, and people were sort of stepping up.  I missed it by one step.  Not that I could actually paint, but I’m five feet away from the throne and there’s — the easel’s lined up there.  Out of the blue, from behind a curtain, Shaq walks out and sits down five feet away from me in this throne and for a good 20 seconds we caught eyes, made eye contact, he was looking into my eyes, and he was doing a dance with his pecs while staring into my eyes.  Shaq.  Five feet away.  Doing a pec dance.


That’s a brand experience that I will not forget.  After that he did a DJ set, and in addition to being a very large human, he was actually a great DJ as well.  That’s my favorite experiential marketing campaign, and let me tell you, man, that guy’s mesmerizing.  He might have actually been trying to hypnotize me, and it might have worked.


JOEY:                         It might have worked.  Now do you drink Budweiser every day?   Not every day, but is that your choice?


DAN:                          Not every day.  I still tell — on a hot summer day — and I could — I could drink nice beer.  I like ales and dark lager and da da-da da-da — Busch Light is still my favorite beer on a hot day.  It was my poison in college and something about it — that’s my cheap beer of choice.


JOEY:                         It affects an emotion that you had a long time ago, so you want to continue that.


DAN:                          Exactly.


JOEY:                         Through college.  Well, very cool.  It was good catching up.  Thanks for jumping on here.  I hope to see you soon.  Hopefully in the next month or so, I’ll be out in Chicago.


DAN:                          Let’s make it happen.


JOEY:                         Sounds good.


DAN:                          All right.


JOEY:                         Thanks for joining.


DAN:                          Thank you.  Cheers, everybody.


JOEY:                         Cheers.  Bye.


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